Marion Jenkins, co-founder of HealthSpaces

Marion Jenkins, co-founder of HealthSpaces, joins the podcast to share how smarter facility design and technology can improve both patient experience and operational efficiency.

He discusses rethinking healthcare spaces to better support clinicians, workflows, and long-term growth. This episode explores how intentional design can directly impact care delivery and outcomes.

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Transcript:

As the payers change their rule, how can we change our submission so that we don't have so much rejection and rework? My definition of this is based on EODs, Explanation of Denials. They're not EOBs, they're Explanation of Denials.

Their job is to deny. And their job is to automate those denials. So we have to automate the denials.

We have to gear up, arm up to deal with that.

Well, Marion, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast today.

You're welcome.

Have you enjoyed California?

Well, I used to live here. I went to graduate school, Stanford, spent six long wonderful years of indentured servitude, so it's fun to be back. This is not usually the weather in January, though, for just tell me this area.

It's true, it's true.

Tell us a little bit about yourself and your background and how you got to where you're at today.

So I wanted to be an Air Force test pilot, so I got into engineering, and that led to being in technology. And just so you know, when I say IT, I'm talking about back in the days of punch cards.

So a long, long time ago, I'm rather old, so got into telecommunications after that, and then I've been in healthcare technology for about the last 25 years.

Why healthcare technology?

So started out just doing technology services for lots of different businesses, financial services, professional services. And literally, in about 2000, we got a healthcare client.

It was a practice that was coming out of a hospital, and they needed all new technology. And so realized that they had a huge issue, a huge problem. This was probably in 2000, 2001.

And then a few years later, HIPAA security came out, not HIPAA privacy, that was earlier, but HIPAA security, which was data, which went active in about 2005. And that seemed like, well, that's going to be good from a quote consulting standpoint.

We hate that term, but, you know, helping people deal with HIPAA security. And here we are 20 years later, that problem is worse than it was then.

So, you know, it's interesting. Mary, can you, can you get a little bit more specifics? I think when people say they're in IT, I think most people are more curious about what that actually means.

Can you tell us a little bit about your company and like maybe a few sentences of what you guys handle and like what you guys are really focused on?

Yeah. So we, our mission, our mission statement really, our evolutionary purpose is to help independent physician practices become healthy technologically and stay independent.

We feel like practices that end up getting bought by hospitals or even going with PE groups or get sucked up by some of the big companies like Optum. We feel that's a function of a failure.

A lot of cases for from a system standpoint and from a technology standpoint, we're in the technology space, and we actually believe that technology has made health care worse, not better.

And we're trying to reverse that and get away, get away from things like products and get more into processes, strategy and strategic focus instead of just changing out one vendor for another vendor. And that's been the, that's been the mode.

Plus, eliminating all of the bolt-ons and those kinds of things. So we deal more with strategy and process and vision and those kinds of things, and then let the solutions be dictated from there. So we kind of turn it around.

I mean, you know, I, you mentioned how you kind of started, started in the very, very early days of technology.

And there's been quite a, I imagine you've seen quite a few different evolutions of technology from, you know, digital to now AI.

What, what experiences did you have in your earlier career that kind of helped you choose whether it be point solutions or entire platforms that best fit the clients that you work for?

So the thing that really strikes me, let me, let me answer the question a little bit different.

The thing that really strikes me is here we are, you know, 15 years later, post-era high tech, which was supposed to get everybody on an electronic health record.

It was supposed to be integrated, and it was supposed to be interoperable, and it was supposed to be seamless, and it was supposed to let providers treat patients, and it was supposed to make the process easier for patients.

None of those things have happened yet. We have more paper, we have more fax machines, we have more staff. There's more people being hired in healthcare than any other industry, and that's been true over the last 10 years.

Ironically, hiring in technology has gone down, but hiring in healthcare has increased, and most of those people are not yet able to take advantage of technology.

So we're trying to work with practices to help them reverse the trend of just throwing bodies at problems, but really look at processes, optimize, and then automate rather than the other way around.

5:04

Technology Chaos

And then, Marion, you've talked before about technology chaos, and I thought it's a very, very interesting topic that you use about looking at things like you outlined more of like, hey, we have point solutions, these are tools, are they the right

Yeah.

What's your approach and how to fix that?

Because I would argue most people aren't looking to uproot what they're doing. They have a fire, they want to put out the fire. How do you guys approach that through your lens?

Yeah.

So that's really interesting. First, let me give you the background on where technology chaos came from.

We asked one of our long-term clients, what is it you feel like we do for you that's different than other vendors or other solution providers that you have? And they said, you guys just help us solve technology chaos.

Because if you think about whether you're a physician or whether you're a health care executive, you're barraged with all of the new stuff. Of course, AI is the latest new thing.

For a while, it was cloud, and then it was SaaS, and then it was this and that and the other. And so, to them, it's very, very hard for them, because you said they're just looking to put out a fire.

It's very hard for them to deal with that technology chaos. And then if you think about a provider in clinic helping a patient, if something doesn't work, is it their wireless? Is it the power supply on their laptop?

Is it a database problem? Is it an AT&T network problem? Is it the EMR?

Is it the interface with the lab software? They have no idea, and frankly, they don't care, and they don't want to know. And so we work to try to eliminate or remove or solve all those problems so they can just practice medicine.

And then we help on the back end with finding out what is the problem and then dealing with that, whether we need to go to the EMR vendor, the RCM vendor, whether it's training, whether it's a networking problem, because they don't know and they

I imagine a lot of what you do also has to do with vetting out specific vendors, right?

Absolutely.

So when you are trying to solve a problem for a specific client, what are some of the main things you're looking for when you're vetting out whether or not a vendor is a good fit for your customer or not?

Yeah, that's a great question.

And that's a lot of what we do. Most people, again, going back to the chaos, most doctors are looking to reduce clicks, reduce the time that they spend with a system, interacting with the system.

They're just trying to solve a problem, and we're trying to make sure that they don't just pick a product, but they pick a partner company.

So obviously, in 25 years, we've seen, and I could name names, we've seen EMRA was like the darling, and then this company was the darling, and that company became out of favor.

And then, oh, these two companies merged, and half of their customers are happy, the other half are unhappy. And so we help dig into more about the health of the company. What's their software development-like cycle?

What is their project management philosophy? What's their release schedule?

I mean, you've got EMRs who do such massive releases once or twice a year, that it's almost like it's a brand new EMR, versus something that you use every day like Amazon or Spotify or whatever. They're doing releases multiple times a day.

You don't know that because they're small releases and they're happening slowly. So we help make sure that the practice, we evaluate the technology company as a technology company, not just what the features are.

Everybody's focused on feature functionality. We had this conversation earlier today. Somebody was asking about, well, how many clicks does it take to do X, Y, and Z?

It's like, well, that's just one question. And besides that, that's probably going to change. You really want to understand what was more like, what code base do you use?

What technology stack do you use? Are you, as you're underlying architecture this decade, most of them are not even this decade technology, and they're trying to add things to it. In most cases, that's really not possible.

So we help them understand, or help them understand, but help them look at the technology from a different standpoint, other than just the feature functionality or the number of clicks or the number of screens or what kind of fonts it is.

Now, I'm sure you've had thousands of these conversations with potential partners of yours, or probably current partners of yours, but where have you found, don't say the lowest hanging fruit, but maybe the biggest fire that you guys have had to

Well, I would say things revolve around the front desk, the call center, scheduling, and billing.

I would say that providers, technology, I don't know the technology is really going to change the needle, except for probably with regard to AI scribing, with regard to, because at the bottom, the bottom line is, unfortunately, the way healthcare

works in America, you have to justify, everything is about billing. So it's really not about treating patients, it's really billing. Billing codes, CPT codes, ICD-10 codes, and things like that. And so everything kind of revolves around that.

Which I, as a provider, I find it unfortunate because a system that's built on billing, usually the treatment is dictated by billing, which means our system is largely, in my opinion, broken.

How do we go about trying to fix the mindset around billing and having it all revolve around billing to what I think is the most important thing, which is actually the health of the patient?

Yeah.

11:01

Billing Dominance

So unfortunately, I think it really has to start with billing and then back up from there. I don't know if you guys aren't old enough to know this or not, but back in the day, we had state health care information exchanges, HIEs.

And the two big companies that were HIEs, and this was supposed to be a repository or clearinghouse, not clearinghouse, not in the sense of billing clearinghouse, but like a centralized repository for data sharing.

The two big companies were bought by the two largest insurance companies because of data. So it's really about data.

And so I think the biggest, to me, the biggest benefit or the biggest rocks to deal with are how do we as independent providers, how do we arm ourselves and equip ourselves with our artillery to do battle with the insurance companies who have all the

data? They have all the data. We still have faxes. They have all the data.

So anything that we can do to automate that in real time, like as the payers change their rules, how can we change our submissions so that we don't have so much rejection and rework?

And I want to throw in at some point that my definition of this is based on EODs, explanation of denials. They're not EOBs, they're explanation of denials. Their job is to deny, and their job is to automate those denials.

So we have to automate the non-denials. We have to gear up, arm up to deal with that.

I guess that brings me to the next thing because as he said, as a provider, I didn't have those tools. I thought I had a good idea of how to render gold standard care, and then the Cs would part and it figure itself out.

We all know that's not the case. But how are you guys able to keep up with the landscape? It's changing every day.

That's always the feedback we're always hearing from practices. We don't even know what we don't know until we find out that we're at a loss of X amount of dollars or all these denials. How are you able to stay ahead of it?

What's your process there?

Well, so we don't represent ourselves as billing experts, just so you know. We're looking for solutions and automation to help practices do that.

And so what we look for is real automation and real AI to actually in real time adjust and adapt to what the submissions are, so that we can eliminate the ELBs in the first place.

I think up until now, it's all been reporting and spreadsheets and manual processes of assigning it to a small army of billers, which they have a really difficult job and it's really, really complicated.

They have so many payers, they have so many contracts, they have so many ways that those claims have to be submitted. And if you don't submit it the right way, then their artillery kicks it back.

And so we're constantly looking for tools that streamline that. Same thing with how can we find tools on behalf of our clients that help minimize friction with regard to appointment setting, even calling the practice in the first place.

You know, the old press one, if you're a doctor, press two, if it's a prescript, that stuff just annoys patients no end. And then the third one is, oh my gosh, patient portals. What a joke.

They're terrible compared to the kind of experience that you have with like your airline or banking or any other industry. We're just so way behind with regard to technology. And so, it's not just about buying another tool or another bolt on.

It's really looking fundamentally for organizations that have a much more holistic vision of what the health care experience needs to be.

When you're looking at your clients, right? The clients that you're helping kind of solve this technology chaos for, are you seeing a trend in the specific pain points that a lot of the clients are facing for it now?

And then, what are technologies that you're looking into to solve that kind of trend of pain points?

Yeah, so great question. There's sort of like the client piece where we're constantly helping them and asking them the questions of what's the most important thing that you're trying to solve. We help them prioritize.

We help them roadmap it because you can't solve everything at once. You may be in a contract, for example, that you can't get out of for two years. And so, you're going to bang your head against that process until that contract expires.

So that's what we're really doing on the client side. What we see in general, though, is clients just struggling with trying to deal again with the chaos. And some of them are kind of in their own way, in their own way, their worst enemy.

I'll give you an example. You guys aren't probably old enough to remember, but credit cards, there used to be a thing called a cheese grater, where they ran your credit card against a card on this copy.

And then they went to credit card terminals, where there was a swipe. And then they went to chip cards, and then you put your chip in, and then they had RFID with tap.

Well, right now today, if you go into 7-Eleven or any retail place, you, as a customer, can take your card, and it doesn't matter what you want to do.

You can do any of those things, except the shred, the cheese grater, but you can even manually enter your card. With the same terminal, with the same process, I can accommodate all of these legacy processes.

In healthcare, as a patient right now, today, you used to have the clipboard and all the forms.

And then, you know, text messaging came along, and then the patient portal, and then, you know, so-called patient engagement platforms, where you get a different text message from a different group. But unfortunately, all of those things still exist.

So I still, you know, even though I use the patient portal, and even though I got the text message on my phone to fill out the forms, I go to the front desk and I still have the damn clipboard. It's like, why are we keeping all of those processes?

We needed to kill off the old processes. Same thing with forms. You know, many people think you need a separate paper form for permission to treat, for HIPAA, for disclosure, for surprise billing.

And because somebody somewhere thinks that this has to go in this file cabinet, this has to go in that file cabinet. And so we have a lot of insanity and this goes to the chaos piece.

We have a lot of those things that we're really trying to help practices eliminate. Forget what the product is, forget what the solution is. Let's work on the processes while we're doing the automation.

Yeah, no, I love that.

And again, just to dive in a little bit deeper, like so when you meet with a group, and there's some things that you guys have to sort out of, like how to make the practice more efficient, collect more transparency, reach out to the patients,

whatever it is. I mean, you talk a little bit, maybe you could talk a little bit more about, like how you want those solutions to be driven by the clinicians. But a lot of times these big groups, they have C-suite that have never been a clinician.

Like how do you balance how to inject solution?

18:31

Collaborative Decisions

So the first thing from our perspective is, we will not engage with a practice who won't let us engage with the physicians too.

Because healthcare is different than any other business where you can have the C-suite that makes the decision, sets the rules and makes all the worker bees follow the rules.

In healthcare, the physicians are the decision makers, they're the funders, they're the board members, and they are also the worker bees. And so we have to engage the physicians and providers across the board.

We have to have representation from them. Plus, they have to be able to communicate to their peers what those decisions are. And we have very specific methodologies that we go through to help them understand.

And I'll give you an example. I mentioned this earlier. Let's say you're a physician group and your call center manager comes in and says, if you don't give me a new phone system with better reporting, I'm quitting.

Your business development person says, we need a new website and we've got to have marketing analytics. We've got to have a search engine optimization. We've got to know where patients are coming from.

The providers say, I'm working here until eight o'clock. If you don't give me a better system to do documentation, I'm going to fire you.

And then, I don't know, you've got somebody else, the front desk who has 20 or 30 percent turnover per year because systems are so bad. So you've got all those people who come into you and say, I've got all of these problems.

So we meet with all of the different stakeholders, and this is really our secret sauce. We go through and meet with all of the stakeholders and come up with what we call, interestingly enough, called MOAPs, Mother of All Project Sheets.

So we meet with all the stakeholders, and they tell us everything, all their pain points.

And we come back to, we form a technology steering committee and we say, here's what everybody in the practice is saying, and you can't solve all of these at once. So how do you deal with that?

So we go through and help them force rank it according to four parameters, cost, benefit, performance, and risk.

We help them assign numerical scores to those, and then they, as a group, decide, we don't decide, they as a group decide, well, this one is, this one right here, this problem right here is highest combination of cost, benefit, performance, and risk.

Has the lowest cost, gives us the highest benefit. It's got the best performance, meaning it's easy to use, and it will reduce our risk. Risk of not getting paid, risk of being sued, risk of a HIPAA breach, whatever.

Cost, benefit, performance, risk. And so we take what is the chaos, sorry, we take the chaos and really distill it down for them, and then they decide what they want to do first. And then we help them execute that.

I love that, because I think it's a very systematic approach to verifying some key pillars that can affect the practice in multiple ways.

You mentioned cost being a factor. I know we live in an age where there's a lot of, again, vendors and point solutions. And I think sometimes we have a tendency to always just look for the least expensive option.

When, in your process of evaluating a vendor, are you okay paying a little bit more if it means X, Y, and Z for other things?

Well, that's why there's fork scores.

Right.

Because you're absolutely right. At the end of the day, physicians, again, because it's so chaotic and it's so complicated, they're really smart. They've been in medical school.

They're really smart. But at the end of the day, they tend to fall back on, well, what's the cheapest cost? What's the lowest cost?

And so that's why we have not just cost, but what's the benefit? What's the upside going to be? In other words, this system may cost, I don't know, I'm just making up $100,000, but if it makes me $200,000, then that offsets the cost.

If this system over here costs me $50,000, but it only makes me $50,000 in benefit, then that helps offset that cost-only scenario.

And then the performance, if it's hard to use, if it's gonna change everybody's world in the practice, you're gonna have huge change fatigue, you're gonna have change resistance, you're gonna have Betty Liu in Medical Records, who's been there for 20

years, and she's just gonna stonewall it, so you might as well not even start the process because it's dead on arrival. And then risk, you know, is it going to reduce your risk of not getting paid for a claim, you know, having a hip up reach or some

other issue? And we have specific parameters around those that we help them understand so that they have a scorecard that they all agree to.

And they keep going back and revising that and asking themselves the question, well, which one of these, this one has a higher benefit than this one? And they're the ones that make that determination.

Yeah. And then you mentioned the resistance. I'm assuming, right, you can only take the horse to water here.

But just how you guys are ingrained with your current clients, you know everything about them, I'm sure, at that point, right?

Yes.

Is there a point where they just say, like, you mentioned it, then they decide, like, what's their decision tree look like?

Is there ever a time where they just turn over the book and they say, look, you can operate for us the best way you see forward, you just have to stay between these two lanes? Because I would assume that would be hard to...

If you have that system in place, you deliver it to them. If they don't have a system on how they pick one, they're just, you know, pulling straws.

Yeah. So let me answer the question a little bit differently. We have clients frequently say, well, you guys have picked 10 phone systems in the last year.

Just tell us the best one. Or the big one, the elephant in the room is the EMR. What's the best EMR?

And I, going back on it, I wish I had just created a business and said $5. For $5, I'll answer this question. Because there isn't one, never has been one.

If so, everybody would be on it. Now there's some that are bigger than others. But there is no one good EMR.

There is no one good phone system. There is no one good telecom or networking provider or whatever it is. They have to go through the process and they have to own it.

Because if they quote, outsource it to us, then it's our solution. If they don't buy off on it, especially at the physician level, at the board level, and the physicians explaining to each other.

We've had situations where we didn't get good enough buy-in, and so it became the COO's project or the CFO's project or even the CEO.

And it has to be whatever their government structure is, they're the ones that have to make that decision and communicate that. We help them, but it's not our decision.

25:47

Client Success Story

One question I had is, I think we've talked a lot about the processes of evaluating a technology.

I'd love to hear specifically from HealthSpaces. Do you have an example of a client that you took on that had a specific problem, and then a specific solution that really changed how they operated as a business?

Oh, yeah, sure. We have a good example as a group that had, they had a separate PM system from an EMR system.

Both of those systems also had, the PM system also had an EMR, the EMR also had a PM system, and then they had a third, what you would call patient engagement or patient experience.

And they wanted to consolidate that down to at least two and possibly one. And so we went through a very rigorous process with them.

Fortunately, they decided early on that the EMR side, they were very, the providers were very happy and very comfortable with that. And so that became, for lack of a better term, kind of the lead horse in the contest for them.

They happened to be PE backed. And so the PE firm, who we also had to work with, they had their own views on that, which were complementary to the practice.

Sometimes those are contradictory, or sometimes it can just create a situation where nobody wants to make a decision because they're fearful of making the wrong decision. But in this case, those things kind of lined up.

So we went through a very rigorous process of kind of analyzing the different advantages and pros and cons with them.

We also engaged them at multiple levels, and we got the primary stakeholders in terms of the people that were really going to be impacted by it, like call center, RCM, patient engagement, front desk, those kinds of things, to get them in the process

so they were actually actively engaged in helping to find the selection criteria. And then we put together a selection process or a selection template, if you will, that was based on their criteria before we ever met with any clients or had any

demos. Because in my 20 plus years, 90 plus years, some people have said, in my 20 plus years in healthcare, I've seen only one bad demo. So all demos by definition are good.

So you have to have the practice, get their homework straight and their scorecards straight and their approach straight before you ever go out to do the demos.

Because what we frequently hear is, well, I really like that one demo or I like that one thing or they get, you know, practices get hung up on one thing that really, you know, there's a thing that they really hate right now.

And if another system fixes that, then they kind of go blind relative to everything else they should look at. So make sure they check all the boxes. And in this case, they did that.

We also help them model things out, looking at contract end dates. And when the go live was going to be, we helped them negotiate very favorable terms for the implementation costs, which were very high.

We were able to shift that into the next calendar year for them.

And so their overlap, because what a lot of companies don't really realize, a lot of practices don't realize is, you can't turn one system off on a Friday and turn the other one on a Monday and have the costs for the practice match those.

And so we help to minimize that overlap. They had that very well planned out. They also had the practice, obviously the vendors had done ROI, you know, calculate saying they were going to save all this money and everything else.

So we went to the stakeholders internally and had them do their own ROI calculations. And then we cut that in half and put that into a financial model that they could take to the board.

So then the board was completely on board with what the finances were going to look like. And they were able to model that.

And then the other thing that we did with them is two years on, we actually did a look back and actually proved out the ROI that had been proposed two years earlier. Because nobody ever does that. Right.

They all say, oh, you're going to save 20, 30 percent. So we actually went back and everybody verified what their savings are going to be, even down to the extra overtime during training and go live.

How many headcount they were going to shift to something else. And that, you know, so anyway, that was a real success.

30:32

Future Healthcare Vision

Knowing what you know now, because we know that there's problems that we're all trying to solve.

But if you look in the future, like, and again, we will revisit this in 20 or 30 years. But what is like your bold, really bold prediction? I'm not safe.

But like when you look and say, 20 years from now, this is what leadership looks like. This is what technology looks like for a practice. Does it look like everybody is now part of a big system?

Because this didn't work. What does it look like of technology changing how we think about healthcare in America?

Well, so that's really a big one. First off, I hope to be here in 20 or 30 years.

And I'm hopeful that on my tombstone, it actually says Marion Jenkins helped reverse this negative trend that happened since 2000, 2005, that we have more paper, more people, more fax machines, and we actually turned the corner and we got rid of that

stuff. Not that I'm in favor of lower employment, but if you look at a graph of how many people there are in healthcare over the years, it looks like this. The number of providers looks like this. It's maybe 10, 20 percent.

I don't know. It's pretty low. But the rest of the people that are in healthcare, we just can't sustain that.

And so we have to apply efficiency. So I guess my answer to the question is being able to do on my phone in healthcare what I can do right now today with my United Airlines app that tells me, let me put it a different way.

I would like to be able to go into a clinic where there's no waiting room, where my phone tells me what room to go to, and it tells my provider that I'm there and I'm ready, and I don't need all the people running around and flags on the wall or

lights or whatever. And it tells me my appointment is running late, so I don't show up and sit in the lobby with 50 other sick people, and watching the fish in the fish tank, and looking at old Insights magazine or Highlights magazine.

That's what I want.

You mentioned that you've seen one bad demo. Did Averill do it?

No.

Tell him the truth. It wasn't a good demo.

No. I actually made the statement in front of somebody, and I said I'd only seen one bad demo, and that person, it was a CEO of a practice, said, oh no, you were in this other demo. You were mad.

And I said, oh yeah, I remember this. There was one bad demo. And it wasn't Averill.

It wasn't Averill.

But I guess, maybe even a little deeper, how long do you think it is till we are where you just said, does that take 20 years?

Ah, boy, I hope not.

I'm hoping in three or four years that we've turned the corner and we have reversed the trend of throwing bodies and apps, bodies and point solutions. We've turned the corner at those. I mean, you look at the EMRs.

EMRs were supposed to do all this stuff at the end of the day. They're glorified billing apps.

You go to all the customer events from the vendors, and there's 30 or 40 add-on vendors to do patient check-in, patient education, reminders, everything else. And it's the same 20 or 30 vendors.

You go to the next EMR company, and it's the same 20 or 30 vendors. Getting rid of all those.

34:10

Seek Expert Guidance

If, kind of wrapping up here, you know, for a provider or practice owner that's maybe watching this podcast, what's your biggest piece of advice you could give them in a world where they may not understand technology and kind of where to go through

Okay, so it's gonna sound completely self-serving, but you've got to get somebody to help you deal with the technology chaos.

You've got to get somebody who's been around and seen a bunch of different systems, not just one EMR, not just one phone system, not just one whatever.

Somebody who's really gonna help you with the tools to make these decisions and not just trade one system out for another.

Oh, I love that.

And then, what's your honest opinion of the people that can't do that? Because I think I would argue right now the way it's set up, people can survive based on current processes, whether they're manual, they're practicing to still use paper.

They're not out of business.

Are you saying they can survive?

Like they are surviving today?

I would say they can't survive, which is why you're seeing so many practices get absorbed by hospitals or private equity groups. They really can't.

And so that comes back to our evolutionary purposes, to help practices become technologically healthy and independent. And so everybody you talk to, they're hiring more people. The cost of those people is going up.

The cost of their benefits is going up. Ironically, one of the biggest costs is healthcare costs for their own employees. So they're really facing a double and triple whammy.

Turnover is increasing. You go to any practice website, they almost all have openings, most of them in billing or front desk or some kind of patient non-care, meaning non-provider situations.

And so I think they just have to recognize that they need to do something different. They can't just switch vendors. They can't just switch from A to B.

Sure.

Well, we appreciate you joining us on the podcast today, and hope you've had a great couple of days in California.

Yeah.

And we appreciate you.

I appreciate it.

Thanks.

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